Network Help
So, my readers know that I'm not the best hardware guy. The same can be said for my networking skills. I have (what is to me) a complex network setup here at my home. It begins with a cable modem upstairs. This is connected to a simple hub. One of the ports goes to a powerline ethernet bridge. Downstairs, I have another powerline ethernet bridge that is connected to a wireless hub. Why the bridge? Wireless simply doesn't work well when it's directly connected to the cable modem upstairs.
In general, this works just fine. My wireless is capped by the powerline networking, which has a top speed much lower than my wireless, but the point is I have great coverage where I need it - in the living room and the back yard.
This worked great for many months. In the past few weeks though, something odd has happened. All of a sudden my laptop, or my wife's, can't use the Internet anymore. The connection to the wireless hub is perfect. When my laptop is down, I can still ping her laptop. In fact, this morning, when my laptop stopped connecting, hers was working just fine. I thought maybe I had accidentally used the same IP (I'm not using DHCP on either of my hubs), but that wasn't the case.
As far as I can see - the issue is totally random. I'll get knocked off for anywhere from 10-30 minutes, and than all of a sudden it works again.
Any ideas? I can say that I've done one thing "wrong" according to the docs for my wireless router. When it talked about connecting it to another hub, it said two things. First - change gateway mode to router mode. I did that. Secondly, it said connect the ethernet cable to the Internet port. I did NOT do this. Instead, I hooked it up to one of the ports. However, as I said above, things worked fine for many, many months. When I "fix" it by changing the ethernet port, it doesn't help. Although maybe I didn't give it enough of a chance.
Anyway, does this sound familiar to anyone?
Comments
Hey Ray, It could be possible that the port you have the ethernet cable in is going bad.. Try switching it to another port or in the internet port.
# Posted By Robert Owen
| 3/16/06 7:36 AM
You might also check your drivers, although if it happens on both of your machines independantly that probably isnt the problem. If you can still ping, I would think it is either the cable modem itself, or the connection between it and your network.
# Posted By Ryan Guill
| 3/16/06 7:57 AM
It happens to me too, and I think it's just hardware degrading and it needs to be replaced eventualyl.
# Posted By noname
| 3/16/06 7:58 AM
Robert/noname: I hope not. It's only about 6 months old. But I'll try the other port next time it happens. Well no.... I mean, if that was it, my wife wouldn't be able to surf... right? I'll try it anyway.
Ryan: I don't think its the wireless to top floor hub, since again,when one machine is down the other one is up normally.
Ryan: I don't think its the wireless to top floor hub, since again,when one machine is down the other one is up normally.
# Posted By Raymond Camden
| 3/16/06 8:05 AM
You could try browsing for all availdible wireless networks.
Maybe someone near by has installed a wireless network (or microwave :-)) that is using a conflicting wireless channel.
Other than that - try changing all your hardware (port, powerline thing, cables, ...), one by one and see how it goes.
Maybe someone near by has installed a wireless network (or microwave :-)) that is using a conflicting wireless channel.
Other than that - try changing all your hardware (port, powerline thing, cables, ...), one by one and see how it goes.
# Posted By Tom Chiverton
| 3/16/06 8:07 AM
Are both you and your wife using wireless? What happens if you use a cable? Do you still loose connection?
I have had mixed results with the cheaper SOHO equipment - I've had a few things last years and others flake out in months... Is everything plugged into UPS/surge protectors? Have you had any lightening lately?
I have had mixed results with the cheaper SOHO equipment - I've had a few things last years and others flake out in months... Is everything plugged into UPS/surge protectors? Have you had any lightening lately?
# Posted By Jim
| 3/16/06 8:15 AM
Yes, both on wireless. I had thought about maybe switching to wired to see. I will do that the next time it dies.
# Posted By Raymond Camden
| 3/16/06 8:17 AM
Ray,
This could just be your cable modem. I have the same probably with mine. It will work great for a couple of weeks and then all of a sudden I will be getting dropped packets. Comcast (the worst) has come out and correct the issue. Run a ping test and use toast.net to determine if your connection speed is good.
Personally I would use process of elimination starting with hooking your laptop directly to the cable modem and going down from there. It will be alot easier to diagnose.
Another thing to check is to make sure that the firmware on the hub and bridges is the latest. Also check the wiring. You be surprised how many times my wife knocks off the internet in my house when she's vaccumming.
This could just be your cable modem. I have the same probably with mine. It will work great for a couple of weeks and then all of a sudden I will be getting dropped packets. Comcast (the worst) has come out and correct the issue. Run a ping test and use toast.net to determine if your connection speed is good.
Personally I would use process of elimination starting with hooking your laptop directly to the cable modem and going down from there. It will be alot easier to diagnose.
Another thing to check is to make sure that the firmware on the hub and bridges is the latest. Also check the wiring. You be surprised how many times my wife knocks off the internet in my house when she's vaccumming.
# Posted By tony petruzzi
| 3/16/06 8:20 AM
Tony, I don't think it's the cable modem. If I go upstairs, I can surf just fine. The machines upstair connect to a hub that connects ot the cable modem. The machines downstairs connect to the wireless hub that talks to hub over powerline networking. When things go 'bad' downstairs, everything is just fine upstairs.
# Posted By Raymond Camden
| 3/16/06 8:26 AM
I get phantom netwrok issues as well (not exactly like you describe, but possibly in the same family). Typically, they are resolved by rebooting the cable modem.
# Posted By Scott Stroz
| 3/16/06 8:30 AM
I'm having the same issue as Tony (although I'm on RR/TW.) Usually I can just remotely reboot my Linksys WRT54GS and then also my Motorola cable modem. If that doesn't work, I need to go to the cable modem and router and unplug them both for 30 seconds. I'm usually good for another couple of weeks before I start having problems.
I actually think this is probably an issue with people running port scans and stuff against the cable modem/router, but I haven't ever been able to catch it in the act.
I actually think this is probably an issue with people running port scans and stuff against the cable modem/router, but I haven't ever been able to catch it in the act.
# Posted By Dan G. Switzer, II
| 3/16/06 8:31 AM
Ray,
With the random nature of the problem, my guess would be one of the access points. Can you tell if it is a problem with both access points or just one? When you say that you access point are not using DHCP, are the DNS and gateway settings the same?
In my other life I repaired medical equipment and the "half-split" troubleshooting technique is very handy in this type of situation. Divide you network into segments (AP to Bridge, and Bridge to Router/Modem). Since it happens on both laptops they are not part of the problem, unless of course you have made software changes to both. Once you have isolated which segment has the problem. Subdivide that into smaller segments Bridge, AP, modem, and cables.
With the random nature of the problem, my guess would be one of the access points. Can you tell if it is a problem with both access points or just one? When you say that you access point are not using DHCP, are the DNS and gateway settings the same?
In my other life I repaired medical equipment and the "half-split" troubleshooting technique is very handy in this type of situation. Divide you network into segments (AP to Bridge, and Bridge to Router/Modem). Since it happens on both laptops they are not part of the problem, unless of course you have made software changes to both. Once you have isolated which segment has the problem. Subdivide that into smaller segments Bridge, AP, modem, and cables.
# Posted By Steve Walker
| 3/16/06 8:34 AM
All of the postings are trying to point out the many points of troubleshooting. Here is a common sense checklist:
* Provider is having intermitent traffic issues
* Do you have a generic cable modem? If so, replace it. I like D-Link myself for cable modems.
* How does the cable from the F socket on the wall look? Is it crimped or bent?
* The ethernet/electric bridge, is there line conditioning? Have you increased the draw of your circuit recently?
* Wireless HUB, frequency issues, any new devices in the 2.4 Mhz range, proximity, WEP, firmware drives, can you see any neighbors creating new wireless connections, possible need for signal booster
* Laptops, is the wireless NIC connected securely, drivers up to date, software firewall, microsoft driver updates that are in conflict with your network devices
* Network, is the NAT working correctly, are you get a WAN IP, is there a pass through firewall, can you trace route outside the network,
This is a helpful check list. I am not a network engineer. I am just a home user that has gone through a lot of apartment and home installations.
* Provider is having intermitent traffic issues
* Do you have a generic cable modem? If so, replace it. I like D-Link myself for cable modems.
* How does the cable from the F socket on the wall look? Is it crimped or bent?
* The ethernet/electric bridge, is there line conditioning? Have you increased the draw of your circuit recently?
* Wireless HUB, frequency issues, any new devices in the 2.4 Mhz range, proximity, WEP, firmware drives, can you see any neighbors creating new wireless connections, possible need for signal booster
* Laptops, is the wireless NIC connected securely, drivers up to date, software firewall, microsoft driver updates that are in conflict with your network devices
* Network, is the NAT working correctly, are you get a WAN IP, is there a pass through firewall, can you trace route outside the network,
This is a helpful check list. I am not a network engineer. I am just a home user that has gone through a lot of apartment and home installations.
# Posted By Teddy Payne
| 3/16/06 8:37 AM
Ray, I only have a few suggestions for you - but they may be helpful. First, if you have one of those fancy pants "internet security" packages running on 1 or both of these machines get rid of it. "Norton internet security" in particular wreaks havoc with wireless.
Second, log into the wireless router and check whatever stats are there. Try to see if there are other wireless devices attempting to connect. Try different channels and settings. Use the MAC filter etc.
Third, and this is silly, check to make sure you are connecting to YOUR network. People set up wireless all the time and your devices might just be grabbing the wrong network. They might be able to connect (handshake) but not really do much else - or the signal may be so weak that it's dropping in and out. I always enable the little icon in the sys-tray and hover over it so it tells me what network I'm on.
Finally, look for EMI around your living area. Is the weather changing and causing the AC to kick on? Have you recently installed a large electric dryer? Does your dog walk around with his hair sticking up like he's saluting the jackson 5? If so, you may have issues with the general environment. These are harder to solve but they can involve things like plants, signal boosters, better power cords etc.
Hope you fix it :)
Second, log into the wireless router and check whatever stats are there. Try to see if there are other wireless devices attempting to connect. Try different channels and settings. Use the MAC filter etc.
Third, and this is silly, check to make sure you are connecting to YOUR network. People set up wireless all the time and your devices might just be grabbing the wrong network. They might be able to connect (handshake) but not really do much else - or the signal may be so weak that it's dropping in and out. I always enable the little icon in the sys-tray and hover over it so it tells me what network I'm on.
Finally, look for EMI around your living area. Is the weather changing and causing the AC to kick on? Have you recently installed a large electric dryer? Does your dog walk around with his hair sticking up like he's saluting the jackson 5? If so, you may have issues with the general environment. These are harder to solve but they can involve things like plants, signal boosters, better power cords etc.
Hope you fix it :)
# Posted By mark kruger
| 3/16/06 8:53 AM
Ray, do you have any kind of WEP encryption or MAC filtering on the wireless? Are you broadcasting an SSID?
My first suspicion would be interference as Tom mentions, or freeloading. Intereference from other devices is fairly innocuous; just a try different channel. I never used to mind freeloaders, until I got a really obnoxious one who was using so much bandwidth I couldn't work. So, I started MAC filtering, hiding my SSID, and encrypting, and I've had excellent success since then.
Incidentally, I'm on Comcast, too, but have had much better success than Tony. I think it's very area-dependent.
My first suspicion would be interference as Tom mentions, or freeloading. Intereference from other devices is fairly innocuous; just a try different channel. I never used to mind freeloaders, until I got a really obnoxious one who was using so much bandwidth I couldn't work. So, I started MAC filtering, hiding my SSID, and encrypting, and I've had excellent success since then.
Incidentally, I'm on Comcast, too, but have had much better success than Tony. I think it's very area-dependent.
# Posted By Edward T
| 3/16/06 8:56 AM
Ray:
- Maybe your wireless card is going bad on your laptop?
- Can you ping the wireless router?
- Can you ping the cable modem?
- Check your Windows Event Logs (Control Panel/Administrative)
- Maybe your wireless card is going bad on your laptop?
- Can you ping the wireless router?
- Can you ping the cable modem?
- Check your Windows Event Logs (Control Panel/Administrative)
# Posted By jim collins
| 3/16/06 9:11 AM
Thank you all for your comments. Forgive me if I don't reply to each. I'll quickly reply to Jim's last. When the laptop is dead, it can still hit the wireless router. It can also hit the other laptop. It can't hit the IP of the hub upstairs or any machine on the lan upstairs. So the "local" wireless network seems to work ok.
# Posted By Raymond Camden
| 3/16/06 9:20 AM
"It can also hit the other laptop. It can't hit the IP of the hub upstairs or any machine on the lan upstairs"
Sounds like the powerline network thing may be at fault then.
Can string a length of CAT5 betwen the upstairs and downstairs instead, even for a few days ?
My wife goes a bit mad when I do things like that, but sometimes it's a good way to do something :-)
Sounds like the powerline network thing may be at fault then.
Can string a length of CAT5 betwen the upstairs and downstairs instead, even for a few days ?
My wife goes a bit mad when I do things like that, but sometimes it's a good way to do something :-)
# Posted By Tom Chiverton
| 3/16/06 9:41 AM
Perhaps it's an electrical issue effecting the powerline connection..
You say during the outages you can both still hit the wireless router, so that's probably OK.
And you can always get out to the internet when the wireless segment is out of the picture.
This points to the connection between the wireless and your wired lan.
Some sort of electrical interference or other wiring issue might be effecting the powerline bandwidth - it may be that this interference is reducing the bandwidth to the point that a single user effectively saturates what's available and makes the network appear to be unavailable to the second user.
Since it's intermittent, it could be due to an appliance cycling up (a refrigerator, furnace, etc). Maybe you have something new plugged in, or are using something you weren't using before (going from heating to cooling in the house, for example).
As others have suggested though, the best way to troubleshoot this sort of thing is to eliminate each piece in the chain one by one.
Try getting a long enough ethernet cable to get your wireless router into range of where you usually use it and try that for a few days (even if it means dealing with a cable running down your stairs or whatever). It will help at least rule in or out the powerline bridges.
You say during the outages you can both still hit the wireless router, so that's probably OK.
And you can always get out to the internet when the wireless segment is out of the picture.
This points to the connection between the wireless and your wired lan.
Some sort of electrical interference or other wiring issue might be effecting the powerline bandwidth - it may be that this interference is reducing the bandwidth to the point that a single user effectively saturates what's available and makes the network appear to be unavailable to the second user.
Since it's intermittent, it could be due to an appliance cycling up (a refrigerator, furnace, etc). Maybe you have something new plugged in, or are using something you weren't using before (going from heating to cooling in the house, for example).
As others have suggested though, the best way to troubleshoot this sort of thing is to eliminate each piece in the chain one by one.
Try getting a long enough ethernet cable to get your wireless router into range of where you usually use it and try that for a few days (even if it means dealing with a cable running down your stairs or whatever). It will help at least rule in or out the powerline bridges.
# Posted By Doug
| 3/16/06 9:48 AM
Tom, it may well be the powerline ethernet, however, remember that when laptop A is down, laptop B is fine. It's almost as if the wireless hub loses the ability to send N streams of data to the upstairs hub. It's connected, but unable to handle multiple people. That's another way of saying it.
# Posted By Raymond Camden
| 3/16/06 9:48 AM
We experienced a pretty similar issue recently with a similar network setup. In our case, the wireless access point just stopped routing traffic. Turned it off and on again, and everything worked fine.
We also have occasional issues with being 'bumped' off our access point if another access point is switched on in our neighborhood. Doesn't seem to matter which channel we use. Any other wifi networks visible in your local area?
We also have occasional issues with being 'bumped' off our access point if another access point is switched on in our neighborhood. Doesn't seem to matter which channel we use. Any other wifi networks visible in your local area?
# Posted By Ed
| 3/16/06 10:20 AM
I used to do network support for many years, but I have not had the opportunity to work with powerline networking. This is redundant to some of the suggestions above, but here is the order I would do things.
Don't be quick to replace anything. When the problem comes up again, start simple and add complexity until you find where the problem occurs.
1. Take the laptop upstairs and plug it into the first router if possible.
2. Plug it to the upstairs hub.
2b. Can you try wireless upstairs? (May require moving the access point upstairs for a little bit)
3. Plug it to the downstairs Power Bridge.
4. Plug into the downstairs access point with a cable.
5. Can you swap wireless cards with your other laptop without causing too much trouble?
Those will help determine which portion of your network is causing the issue. You may have to reconfigure your laptop for some tests, write down any settings you change so that you can get it back to where you started. If the laptop has the problem in all cases, but not with the other computers, then you have a problem (probably software or driver related) with your laptop.
Your problem(s) could include:
a) interference on your wireless or your power network or both. (I.E. It's possible to have an electrical device on that same power circuit that also disrupts your wireless. I've seen a Microwave disrupt a 9Ghz wireless TV signal)
b) A misconfiguration of the laptop networking, or the wireless hub or both (sounds unlikely since it WAS working, but it's possible that you had problem A, and then you accidently caused problem B while troubleshooting.)
c) A neighbor causing wireless interferance. (Either by connecting to your wireless hub, or broadcasting on the same channel with their own wireless hub)
d) New software?
e) A device or cable that has gone bad. In 10 years of networking I have found that this rarely happens, even on home grade equipment, unless you've had a power surge, overheating, or other environmental issue.
Sorry about the length of this post. This is not complete, but covers most of the bases. If you need, feel free to email me directly.
Good luck!
Dan
Don't be quick to replace anything. When the problem comes up again, start simple and add complexity until you find where the problem occurs.
1. Take the laptop upstairs and plug it into the first router if possible.
2. Plug it to the upstairs hub.
2b. Can you try wireless upstairs? (May require moving the access point upstairs for a little bit)
3. Plug it to the downstairs Power Bridge.
4. Plug into the downstairs access point with a cable.
5. Can you swap wireless cards with your other laptop without causing too much trouble?
Those will help determine which portion of your network is causing the issue. You may have to reconfigure your laptop for some tests, write down any settings you change so that you can get it back to where you started. If the laptop has the problem in all cases, but not with the other computers, then you have a problem (probably software or driver related) with your laptop.
Your problem(s) could include:
a) interference on your wireless or your power network or both. (I.E. It's possible to have an electrical device on that same power circuit that also disrupts your wireless. I've seen a Microwave disrupt a 9Ghz wireless TV signal)
b) A misconfiguration of the laptop networking, or the wireless hub or both (sounds unlikely since it WAS working, but it's possible that you had problem A, and then you accidently caused problem B while troubleshooting.)
c) A neighbor causing wireless interferance. (Either by connecting to your wireless hub, or broadcasting on the same channel with their own wireless hub)
d) New software?
e) A device or cable that has gone bad. In 10 years of networking I have found that this rarely happens, even on home grade equipment, unless you've had a power surge, overheating, or other environmental issue.
Sorry about the length of this post. This is not complete, but covers most of the bases. If you need, feel free to email me directly.
Good luck!
Dan
# Posted By Dan Sorensen
| 3/16/06 10:52 AM
Change the channel used for wireless networking on your access point.
# Posted By Hans
| 3/16/06 11:15 AM
Ray,
Does your cable company charge you for multiple hookups? It's hard to tell from the description, but if you have a simple hub hooked up to your cable modem, most likely your getting multiple IP addresses from your cable company and you may be paying them extra bucks for it.
If your xBox360 is plugged into the hub, that's getting an IP address as well.
You can eliminate that by replacing the simple hub with a broadband router. A good one will provide it's own DHCP with NAT (Network Address Translation), which essentially shares a single IP from the cable modem on your own internal subnet. Nice ones also provide hardware based firewall protection, DMZ, VPN, port forwarding, etc.. All the bells and whistles and actually very easy to understand.
I've been using a SMC Barricade Plus, which I love, but I'm planning on upgrading to a linkSys model, most likely the WRT54GX2,which is around $150 or less. The WRT54GX2 also provides wireless.
Check out the linksys site, search on the model and look at the user manual (pdf), you'll get an idea of how easy it is to set up. Not any worse than going through the CFIDE.
Does your cable company charge you for multiple hookups? It's hard to tell from the description, but if you have a simple hub hooked up to your cable modem, most likely your getting multiple IP addresses from your cable company and you may be paying them extra bucks for it.
If your xBox360 is plugged into the hub, that's getting an IP address as well.
You can eliminate that by replacing the simple hub with a broadband router. A good one will provide it's own DHCP with NAT (Network Address Translation), which essentially shares a single IP from the cable modem on your own internal subnet. Nice ones also provide hardware based firewall protection, DMZ, VPN, port forwarding, etc.. All the bells and whistles and actually very easy to understand.
I've been using a SMC Barricade Plus, which I love, but I'm planning on upgrading to a linkSys model, most likely the WRT54GX2,which is around $150 or less. The WRT54GX2 also provides wireless.
Check out the linksys site, search on the model and look at the user manual (pdf), you'll get an idea of how easy it is to set up. Not any worse than going through the CFIDE.
# Posted By Christopher Wigginton
| 3/16/06 1:50 PM
CHristopher, the upstairs hub -is- a good system, it offers DHCP. The reason I don't use DHCP is that I never found a good solution for machines names. So for example, my sql server was on box b, and the name never seemed to work, I had to use an IP, and if the IP changed, then I was screwed.
But maybe I can try it again. It certainly is a pain in the rear having to enter in stuff manually.
But maybe I can try it again. It certainly is a pain in the rear having to enter in stuff manually.
# Posted By Raymond Camden
| 3/16/06 1:53 PM
You could manually enter IP's for only machines that need them - servers and such - and use DHCP for everything else. Assuming your router allows you to restrain the range of IP addresses in the DHCP pool, just manually assign addresses outside of that range, and then you won't have to worry about conflicts.
# Posted By Doug
| 3/16/06 3:35 PM
Question, is your Ethernet Bridge transparent? (Do you have to enter different network settings to downstairs computers?)
---
DHCP is optional if you are good about entering the correct DNS, Subnet Mask, and Router/Gateway Address. If you have a firewall/router connected to the modem, then you shouldn't have the multiple IP issue with your ISP either.
The only ways to accomodate your machine name flexibility is to use static IP (like you have) or setup a DNS server (which may be more pain than you need for a few computers at home).
You COULD use DHCP with "reservations" for your computers. That way, a computer would get some DHCP benefits, but always be provided with the same IP address.
The DHCP benefits are probably outweighed by the added complexity of setting up and maintaining reservations, and still doesn't resolve your issue. It's best to simplify the setup until the problems go away, before adding complexity again.
Good luck!
---
DHCP is optional if you are good about entering the correct DNS, Subnet Mask, and Router/Gateway Address. If you have a firewall/router connected to the modem, then you shouldn't have the multiple IP issue with your ISP either.
The only ways to accomodate your machine name flexibility is to use static IP (like you have) or setup a DNS server (which may be more pain than you need for a few computers at home).
You COULD use DHCP with "reservations" for your computers. That way, a computer would get some DHCP benefits, but always be provided with the same IP address.
The DHCP benefits are probably outweighed by the added complexity of setting up and maintaining reservations, and still doesn't resolve your issue. It's best to simplify the setup until the problems go away, before adding complexity again.
Good luck!
# Posted By Dan Sorensen
| 3/16/06 3:58 PM
The solution to accessing resources with dynamic IP addresses (ie NAT) is at http://www.dyndns.com/services/dns/dyndns/ . This will allow you to have mysqlserver.dyndns.com and the client software keeps the ip address nice and updated.
# Posted By jim collins
| 3/16/06 4:34 PM
Hey guys, I forgot to give an update. As I had mentioned, one of the weird things was that I had NOT set my network according to the docs. My wireless connected to the powerline via one of the numbered ports, and NOT the "Internet" port. I switched to that. I then turned on DHCP on the upstairs router and now it seems to work just fine. I haven't had any mysterious down times since I changed. Can I just say I hate networking? Anyone want to volunteer to be my hardware/network grunt so I can spend all day blogging? ;)
Seriously - a big thank you to everyone here for your help. I really appreciate it.
Seriously - a big thank you to everyone here for your help. I really appreciate it.
# Posted By Raymond Camden
| 3/22/06 8:37 AM
I had similar problems with an older DLink wireless router. I finally decided that the port used to connect to the WAN was bad. My internal network worked like a charm (Wired and wireless). The router was 13 months old - just out of warranty of course. I replaced it with a newer faster DLink and the problems went away.
# Posted By TK
| 4/12/06 8:58 AM
Make sure that if your Linksys is using a 2.4 GHertz Frequency - that you do not have Cordless Phone in/or around the house that are also using 2.4 GHertz
This can cause major issues because they are on the Same Frequency.
Everytime my 2.4 Phone rings and I pick it up - poof! there go the wireless......Solution = get 900 Herts Phone
This can cause major issues because they are on the Same Frequency.
Everytime my 2.4 Phone rings and I pick it up - poof! there go the wireless......Solution = get 900 Herts Phone
# Posted By Crank or Die
| 8/20/06 10:13 AM