I love Louisiana, but...
You have to admit that any state that can't ban cock fighting has some serious issues. I'm no PETA lover and I certainly eat meat, but I don't think you need to be a tree hugger to think this "sport" is just disgusting. I think they should hold a "match" at the state legislature. Make it nice and clear exactly how disgusting this activity is. Make the guys who support this say so while the match is on in front of the news cameras.
Comments
One can only assume that anyone who votes against the ban is probably profting from the cock fights.
Nick, unfortuantely an 'educated society' does not necessarily mean a 'civilized society'
Nick, unfortuantely an 'educated society' does not necessarily mean a 'civilized society'
# Posted By Scott Stroz
| 5/17/06 8:39 AM
Hi Ray...long time lurker, sometimes commentor,
I'm no peta lover either, I eat meat (that I hunt...the only way I could continue to justify it), but since you lifted the lid on the can of worms, have you ever seen how your meat gets to the table...at least as nasty as two chickens beating the life out of each other I think.
peace,
Daren
I'm no peta lover either, I eat meat (that I hunt...the only way I could continue to justify it), but since you lifted the lid on the can of worms, have you ever seen how your meat gets to the table...at least as nasty as two chickens beating the life out of each other I think.
peace,
Daren
# Posted By Daren
| 5/17/06 8:41 AM
Daren,
I think there is certainly a line that can be drawn between being murderous for the sake of filling bellies and being murderous for the sake of sport.
Ray, I wonder if there was some other unappetising pork attached to the bill that caused it to fail (puns somewhat intended).
I think there is certainly a line that can be drawn between being murderous for the sake of filling bellies and being murderous for the sake of sport.
Ray, I wonder if there was some other unappetising pork attached to the bill that caused it to fail (puns somewhat intended).
# Posted By Mike Rankin
| 5/17/06 9:14 AM
Just playing devil's advocate here, but in many countries around the world, cock fighting is quite popular and deeply ingrained in the culture. It's much less so here in the US, but that's not true of many of the immigrant populations that come here and can't understand why it's illegal. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it does depend on the cultural context in which you place it.
# Posted By Rob Brooks-Bilson
| 5/17/06 9:18 AM
I believe the last time it was blocked it was blocked for a BS reason. They said it was in the wrong committee, which I guess is a valid reason, but it was sent to that committee on purpose. Maybe so the politician can say he tried when he really didn't. But dirty politics in Louisiana? Who would believe that.
# Posted By Raymond Camden
| 5/17/06 9:28 AM
Hey Mike,
While I do agree with you to a point, is it not that very notion of excessive cruelty that's being discussed here. Agreeing that cock-fighting is nasty and should be banned is based on agreeing on its cruelty...no? I mean, if they were cock-wrestling for sport, it might not be an issue (sorry for being trite there). In that same vein, is eating factory farmed meat not supporting a particular form of nasty cruelty...?? (that wasn't supposed to be a not-so-subtle stab there either)
Further to Rob's point, I have been in countries where folks think that us in the west are almost funny in our selective adoration of certain animals...i.e. rescue puppies, and chow down on some cow.
This thread makes for some very funny terminology.
peace
While I do agree with you to a point, is it not that very notion of excessive cruelty that's being discussed here. Agreeing that cock-fighting is nasty and should be banned is based on agreeing on its cruelty...no? I mean, if they were cock-wrestling for sport, it might not be an issue (sorry for being trite there). In that same vein, is eating factory farmed meat not supporting a particular form of nasty cruelty...?? (that wasn't supposed to be a not-so-subtle stab there either)
Further to Rob's point, I have been in countries where folks think that us in the west are almost funny in our selective adoration of certain animals...i.e. rescue puppies, and chow down on some cow.
This thread makes for some very funny terminology.
peace
# Posted By Daren
| 5/17/06 9:41 AM
Speaking of Louisiana, I had a guy working for me from your fine state and he told me something I find equally shocking... He told me that in Louisiana, if you divorce your wife, in the eyes of the law, she may still be considered your sister?! Just kidding, don't shoot me.
If it's integrated within society or not, it doesn't stop the abundant cruelty that's forced upon these animals. Although the sport is over 3000 years old imagine being one:
<blockquote>
In the fighting ring, the roosters often wear artificial spurs-long, sharp, daggerlike attachments-that transform their natural spurs into knives for maximum injury. These steel blades are sharp enough to puncture a lung, pierce an eye or break bones.
</blockquote>
If you don't fight you get killed...
<blockquote>
In the fighting ring, the roosters often wear artificial spurs-long, sharp, daggerlike attachments-that transform their natural spurs into knives for maximum injury. These steel blades are sharp enough to puncture a lung, pierce an eye or break bones.
</blockquote>
If you don't fight you get killed...
Mark is now officially banned from this blog. ;)
# Posted By Raymond Camden
| 5/17/06 10:34 AM
I'm a Louisiana native (born in Shreveport) and I think that Louisiana has some unique qualities: great food, great music, and down-to-earth people. And while there have been difficulties, Louisiana is probably one of the more diverse states in this country. However, the political corruption and the complete farce of an education system has continued to keep the majority of the population mired in ignorance. While I'm impressed that they finally elected a female governor, I fear that Blanco and members of the House are simply going to pander to the voting block.
BTW: See you at CFUNITED! Perhaps I can recommend that you pack light and don't check any bags this time. :)
BTW: See you at CFUNITED! Perhaps I can recommend that you pack light and don't check any bags this time. :)
# Posted By Damon Gentry
| 5/17/06 10:53 AM
Yeah I'd put cock fighting right up there with Dog Fighting.
With regards to what Rob said about being cultural, well, I disagree to the effect that a line does need to be drawn.
I mean in some cultures, camel racing is a popular sport, where they smuggle little children from impoverished parts of the middle east and the Indian Subcontinent.
I think a sport ceases to be a sport, when the participants human, beast or extra-terrestrial, do not have a free will to choose to participate, and/or were brainwashed (read training the animal) or coerced into doing it. AND at great personal risk, and harm to the being.
FYI, I'm not PETA fanatic, vegan or vegetarian either.
cheers,
Ali
With regards to what Rob said about being cultural, well, I disagree to the effect that a line does need to be drawn.
I mean in some cultures, camel racing is a popular sport, where they smuggle little children from impoverished parts of the middle east and the Indian Subcontinent.
I think a sport ceases to be a sport, when the participants human, beast or extra-terrestrial, do not have a free will to choose to participate, and/or were brainwashed (read training the animal) or coerced into doing it. AND at great personal risk, and harm to the being.
FYI, I'm not PETA fanatic, vegan or vegetarian either.
cheers,
Ali
# Posted By Ali
| 5/17/06 12:29 PM
I agree with Ali. At a certain point certain things must not be allowed in the context of our own society.
Heck, if I had my way, I'm such a humanist I think the USA would be invading any country where medicine isn't free, bull-fighting is allowed, religious police are part of the state, and honor killings are legal.
Alas, that means that the USA must invade the USA on medicine, doesn't it? ;)
Heck, if I had my way, I'm such a humanist I think the USA would be invading any country where medicine isn't free, bull-fighting is allowed, religious police are part of the state, and honor killings are legal.
Alas, that means that the USA must invade the USA on medicine, doesn't it? ;)
# Posted By Daniel Greenfeld
| 5/18/06 7:12 AM
It's so unfortunate that PETA is looked down on. They drive me absolutely crazy here in Norfolk, VA where the PETA headquarters are based. There is no doubt in my mind that PETA is on the right side of history. What they are trying to accomplish is noble. Their overall strategy and tactics are just terrible.
I was just having a conversation about this with a PETA person the other day. The sad thing is they don't even seem to realize that people don't like PETA. Oh well. Next time i'll tell them to go after cock fighting instead of the circus.
I was just having a conversation about this with a PETA person the other day. The sad thing is they don't even seem to realize that people don't like PETA. Oh well. Next time i'll tell them to go after cock fighting instead of the circus.
# Posted By Steve Nelson
| 5/18/06 8:24 AM
>>in many countries around the world, cock fighting is quite popular and deeply ingrained in the culture.
I went to one while in the Phillipines. I enjoyed it. Won money betting too.
You enjoy the chicken you killed for dinner; what's the difference between that and enjoying a chicken killed for sport?
How about trout fishing?
I went to one while in the Phillipines. I enjoyed it. Won money betting too.
You enjoy the chicken you killed for dinner; what's the difference between that and enjoying a chicken killed for sport?
How about trout fishing?
# Posted By ziggy
| 5/19/06 12:41 AM
As I think other's have said, Ziggy, there is a difference between killing an animal for food versus watching animals kill each other for sport.
Frankly I'm not too concern about other countries. They are more than welcome to do cock fighting. I'm concerned about -my- country, or in this case, my state.
Frankly I'm not too concern about other countries. They are more than welcome to do cock fighting. I'm concerned about -my- country, or in this case, my state.
# Posted By Raymond Camden
| 5/19/06 6:23 AM
Hey Raymond, what does the Louisiana cocks have in special that others don´t have?
and Ziggy... you should have been born in the stone age. I think that would match better to your ideas and "culture".
The only bad part is that there would't be any money...
The only bad part is that there would't be any money...
It also depends on the way you kill (or get killed). Being killed and tortured slowly while people applauded can't be accepted.
> I think the USA would be invading any country where medicine isn't free, bull-fighting is allowed...
You're welcome to invade Portugal!
Some may think that Portugal is part of Europe, but even yesterday night we had a BullFight here in our capital: Lisbon. Things like this shouldn't have a place in Europe, nor in the 21st century.
> I think the USA would be invading any country where medicine isn't free, bull-fighting is allowed...
You're welcome to invade Portugal!
Some may think that Portugal is part of Europe, but even yesterday night we had a BullFight here in our capital: Lisbon. Things like this shouldn't have a place in Europe, nor in the 21st century.
Rui, not quite sure what you mean about Louisiana cocks, obviously I think it should be banned country-wide. (Only one other state allows it.)
I do have one request - please do not attack Ziggy. Let's be polite and respect each other's views here.
I do have one request - please do not attack Ziggy. Let's be polite and respect each other's views here.
# Posted By Raymond Camden
| 5/19/06 12:40 PM
Raymond, I wasn't unpolite. I really think that some people would be happier being born in more barbarian ages. It would be better for them, and better for the rest of us, that wouldn´t have so much trouble in bringing society to higher levels of civilization and culture.
I did not attack Ziggy. Attack is what he made a cock do by paying for it. well, at least He won some money. That's the most important thing. (maybe he can buy a slave with it).
And when he asks what's the difference between a fight to death sport and a kill to eat is, he's attacking my inteligence... and his.
I did not attack Ziggy. Attack is what he made a cock do by paying for it. well, at least He won some money. That's the most important thing. (maybe he can buy a slave with it).
And when he asks what's the difference between a fight to death sport and a kill to eat is, he's attacking my inteligence... and his.
As I said: How about trout fishing?
# Posted By ziggy
| 5/19/06 10:19 PM
>>And when he asks what's the difference between a fight to death sport and a kill to eat is, he's attacking my inteligence... and his.
No, you're simply being righteous and superficial. Both are used as a means to your end (your enjoyment/enhancement/whatever you want to call it). If you're saying animals have rights - which they don't, and neither do "we" except in a political sense (i.e., we grant them to ourselves) -, then they cannot be used as merely a means. Read your Kant, if that's your position, then come back and talk about "intelligence."
Again, what about trout fishing, Rui? Are you also campaigning for it to be banned? Deer hunting? Butterfly collecting?
If not, why not?
No, you're simply being righteous and superficial. Both are used as a means to your end (your enjoyment/enhancement/whatever you want to call it). If you're saying animals have rights - which they don't, and neither do "we" except in a political sense (i.e., we grant them to ourselves) -, then they cannot be used as merely a means. Read your Kant, if that's your position, then come back and talk about "intelligence."
Again, what about trout fishing, Rui? Are you also campaigning for it to be banned? Deer hunting? Butterfly collecting?
If not, why not?
# Posted By ziggy
| 5/19/06 10:39 PM
Hi ziggy,
Yes, both are used as means for Men's end.
Men needs food to live. If you don't eat you die.
Men doesn't need to see animals fighting, being tortured, suffering, bleeding, dying...
Obviously you don't need to eat animals. Some people can choose what they eat, and some chose not to eat animals.
If an animal has to be killed, kill it fast, without suffering. This is how I want to die!
> If you're saying animals have rights - which they don't
Do you know that these kind of things have been said many times throughout History? Words like 'Hitler', 'slavery', 'Saddam', 'genocide', 'torture'.... come to my mind.
I wasn't familiar with trout fishing, so I had to look it up.
I understand it's "fish and let go". Obviously it's not acceptable. Once again, it's just for amusement. Animal torturing and suffering are involved.
We don't have trout fishing, just like we don't have deer or seal hunting. Even butterfly collecting is not a practice here.
But I'm against all of them, just like I'm against wail hunting or kanguru killing.
I'd say that people who defend animals' rights are against these. Just like they are against many other things like animals in cages, explored in circus, etc,...
For some of these things it's impossible for us to have a campaign, but we can boycott some countries' products, sign petitions, talk to people.
And talking to people is, in my opinion, one of the most important things. A this is exactly why I feel I'm not wasting my time here. If you're reading Ray's ColdFusing blog, that shows something already.
People can always change their minds, learn from others, and start to see what's wrong. Mainly, they can learn to think for themselves.
That's why I have to thank Ray for brigging these matters up, and not limiting his posts to interesting stuff about ColdFusion.
:)
Yes, both are used as means for Men's end.
Men needs food to live. If you don't eat you die.
Men doesn't need to see animals fighting, being tortured, suffering, bleeding, dying...
Obviously you don't need to eat animals. Some people can choose what they eat, and some chose not to eat animals.
If an animal has to be killed, kill it fast, without suffering. This is how I want to die!
> If you're saying animals have rights - which they don't
Do you know that these kind of things have been said many times throughout History? Words like 'Hitler', 'slavery', 'Saddam', 'genocide', 'torture'.... come to my mind.
I wasn't familiar with trout fishing, so I had to look it up.
I understand it's "fish and let go". Obviously it's not acceptable. Once again, it's just for amusement. Animal torturing and suffering are involved.
We don't have trout fishing, just like we don't have deer or seal hunting. Even butterfly collecting is not a practice here.
But I'm against all of them, just like I'm against wail hunting or kanguru killing.
I'd say that people who defend animals' rights are against these. Just like they are against many other things like animals in cages, explored in circus, etc,...
For some of these things it's impossible for us to have a campaign, but we can boycott some countries' products, sign petitions, talk to people.
And talking to people is, in my opinion, one of the most important things. A this is exactly why I feel I'm not wasting my time here. If you're reading Ray's ColdFusing blog, that shows something already.
People can always change their minds, learn from others, and start to see what's wrong. Mainly, they can learn to think for themselves.
That's why I have to thank Ray for brigging these matters up, and not limiting his posts to interesting stuff about ColdFusion.
:)
Hi Ray and all,
This comment is most likely too late to be of any use or even to be seen, but I couldn't let it go.
My point above (which I thought was clear) was not that eating meat is bad (as I mentioned I hunt for my own meat)...it was an attempt to move the discussion from the cruelty of cock-fighting to cruelty in general. Opposing cock-fighting due to it's cruelty and being fine with factory farmed meat is a rather silly incarnation of western philosophical convenience in my opinion. Cows are arguably much more capabale of 'understanding' the fear of death and pain than a chicken (somewhat kin to a smart cockroache). To jump up and down about cockfighting while turning a blind eye to farming animals (in the most ghastly and inhumane way), and to then base it on 'well cruelty to cows (or whatever) is alright since I eat them and eating is alright, but since cock-fighting is just sport...well that cruelty is bad' just seems to be a very hollow argument in my opinion.
Thanks for the soapbox Ray....I would have loved to hear your response, but alas...
peace
This comment is most likely too late to be of any use or even to be seen, but I couldn't let it go.
My point above (which I thought was clear) was not that eating meat is bad (as I mentioned I hunt for my own meat)...it was an attempt to move the discussion from the cruelty of cock-fighting to cruelty in general. Opposing cock-fighting due to it's cruelty and being fine with factory farmed meat is a rather silly incarnation of western philosophical convenience in my opinion. Cows are arguably much more capabale of 'understanding' the fear of death and pain than a chicken (somewhat kin to a smart cockroache). To jump up and down about cockfighting while turning a blind eye to farming animals (in the most ghastly and inhumane way), and to then base it on 'well cruelty to cows (or whatever) is alright since I eat them and eating is alright, but since cock-fighting is just sport...well that cruelty is bad' just seems to be a very hollow argument in my opinion.
Thanks for the soapbox Ray....I would have loved to hear your response, but alas...
peace
# Posted By Daren
| 5/23/06 9:08 AM
What makes you think I won't respond? :) From what I know, and I could be wrong, when cows are killed for food, it was a fast and quick death. (Although not painless.) While not perfect, I do find this accceptible. Animals were put here for us to eat. Now if the cows were killed in a long drawn out process I'd consider it cruel.
# Posted By Raymond Camden
| 5/23/06 9:13 AM
Yes, I think Ray said it all, but I have to say one more thing: Why can´t I worry with one problem without having to embrace the whole list? I just can´t understand this argument. To be against war in Iraq, do I have to mention the whole list of wars in the world?
and Ziggy, I guess it's too late now, but let me tell you that I don´t know much about philosophy. But I was hoping that wasn´t necessary to understand that hurting and killing for pleasure is not "right". If it is, well, I guess we're in big trouble.
Anyway, I didn´t say that animals have rights. I just don´t like people to hurt them for fun. How inteligent is this concept?
Anyway, I didn´t say that animals have rights. I just don´t like people to hurt them for fun. How inteligent is this concept?
<rant>
There are so many cruel sports that 'we' as an educated society don't need. Have we not moved forward from our neanderthalic days that we need to see brutality displayed in such a way? If you want blood sport, sadly all you have to do is watch the news...
</rant>